Sarah Chayes

January 29, 2015 - Sarah Chayes 01/29/2015 Views: 21,018

"Thieves of State" author Sarah Chayes suggests that corruption is one of the greatest security challenges of the 21st century. (5:29)

>> Jon: WELCOME BACK.

MY GUEST TONIGHT FORMER NPRCORRESPONDENT, SENIOR ASSOCIATE

AT THE CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT, HERNEW BOOK IS CALLED "THIEVES OF

STATE: WHY CORRUPTION THREATENSGLOBAL SECURITY."

PLEASE WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMSARAH CHAYES. SARAH! HELLO!

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE) NICE TO SEE YOU!

HOW ARE YOU?

>> I'M GREAT.

HOW ARE YOU?

>> Jon: I'M GOOD!

I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS!

I HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THISDAMN BOOK, "THIEVES OF STATE"

ABOUT CORRUPTION.

I FEEL LIKE CORRUPTION IS THEMOST INSIDIOUS, MOST WIDESPREAD,

LEAST TALKED ABOUT ISSUE IN THE21st CENTURY.

>> SO I GET A LOT OF CRITICISMFOR FOCUSING TOO MUCH ON

CORRUPTION.

>> Jon: OH, THEN I AGREE WITHTHAT, THEN.

I'M SORRY.

WHAT DID DID I SAY?

>> I DON'T THINK IT'S THE ONLYCAUSE OF ALL THE CRISES THAT WE

HAVE BEEN SEEING IN THELAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

>> Jon: YES.

>> I THINK IT'S ONE OF THECAUSES, AND IT'S THE ONE THAT

NOBODY'S TALKING ABOUT.

>> Jon: YES.

>> SO THAT'S WHY I WROTE"THIEVES OF STATE" ABOUT

BASICALLY THIS ONE ISSUE.

>> Jon: NOW THIS FOCUSES,OBVIOUSLY, ON A LOT OF YOUR

EXPERIENCE IN AFGHANISTAN OVERTHE PAST -- YOU LIVED THERE NINE

YEARS OR A DECADE.

>> A DECADE. YEAH.

>> Jon: BUT I THINK THE MOSTINTERESTING THING ABOUT IT IS

THE CONNECTION YOU MAKE BETWEENWHAT WE WOULD CONSIDER

CORRUPTION, AND NOT NECESSARILYLIKE, YOU KNOW, CARICATURE MONEY

IN A BRIEFCASE CORRUPTION WHICHEXISTS, BUT THE CONNECTION

BETWEEN CORRUPTION ANDEXTREMISTS.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

AND SOME OF IT IS MONEY IN ABRIEFCASE.

AND I THINK THERE ARE TWOASPECTS OF CORRUPTION, THE KIND

OF CORRUPTION THAT I'M TALKINGABOUT THAT A LOT OF

AMERICANS DON'T GET.

ONE IS IT'S REALLY IN YOUR FACE.

THIS IS NOT SOME, YOU KNOW,VICTIMLESS THING HAPPENING THAT

YOU DON'T EVEN NOTICE.

>> Jon: RIGHT.

>> THIS IS THE COP SHAKES YOUDOWN NOT ONCE, NOT TWICE, FIVE

TIMES.

IF YOU DON'T FORK OVER, HE MIGHTHIT YOU.

HE -- NOT ONLY IS HE STEALINGYOUR MONEY, HE'S INSULTING YOU

WHILE HE'S DOING IT.

AND IT'S NOT JUST THE COP.

IT'S THE NURSERY SCHOOL TEACHER.

I HAVE A FRIEND IN NIGERIA WHOSAID, YOU KNOW, IF YOU DON'T PAY

THE NURSERY SCHOOL TEACHER, SHEDOESN'T PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR

CHILD AND YOUR CHILD IS CRANKY.

IF YOU WANT YOUR CHILD TO BEHAPPY, YOU HAVE TO PAY OFF THE

NURSERY SCHOOL TEACHER.

IT'S IN YOUR FACE EVERY SINGLEDAY,

AND SO THAT MAKES PEOPLE MAD.

>> Jon: RIGHT.

NOW THAT'S WHERE IT STARTS TOCOME IN.

SO YOU HAVE THIS IDEA THATGOVERNMENT OR THE INSTITUTIONS

THAT HAVE BEEN PUT IN PLACE BYTHE POWERFUL DO NOT WORK FOR YOU

IN ANY WAY?

>> NOT ONLY DO THEY NOT WORK FORYOU, THEY WORK AGAINST YOU

ACTIVELY.

>> Jon: YES. THEY WORK AGAINSTYOU.

>> SO WHY DO YOU SUPPOSE A THIRDOF IRAQ WAS WILLING TO BE OPEN

TO THE LUNATICS THAT CALLTHEMSELVES THE ISLAMIC STATE?

IT WAS SO BAD, THE MALIKIGOVERNMENT WAS SO BAD AND THERE

WAS ABSOLUTELY NO RECOURSE,PEOPLE STARTED TO SAY, YOU KNOW,

SIX OF ONE, HALF DOZEN OF THEOTHER.

>> Jon: RIGHT.

>> SO THAT'S ONE PIECE OF ITTHAT I THINK AMERICANS DON'T

REALLY GET.

AND THE REASON EXTREMISTMOVEMENTS I THINK ARE ATTRACTIVE

TO PEOPLE IN THIS SITUATION, TWOTHINGS, ONE IS IT OFFERS AN

EXPLANATION.

WHY IS OUR GOVERNMENT SOOBNOXIOUS?

BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT FOLLOWINGRELIGIOUS STRICTURES.

>> Jon: THEY'RE NOT PURE.

>> THEY'RE NOT PURE. THEY'RE NOT--

THEY'RE MORALLY DEPRAVED AS WELLAS MATERIALLY DEPRAVED.

>> Jon: YES.

>> SO THE ONLY WAY YOU CANACHIEVE PUBLIC INTEGRITY IS

THROUGH PRIVATE, STRICTMORALITY.

>> Jon: RIGHT.

>> SO THAT'S ONE THING,EXPLANATION.

SECOND, HAVE YOU BEEN TO THED.M.V. LATELY?

>> Jon: SURE.

(LAUGHTER)WHAT DO YOU THINK?

MY LICENSE IS EXPIRED AND IJUST DRIVE?

I MEAN, THAT'S -- THAT'S LUNACY!

>> SO, WOULD YOU HAVE LIKED TOHAVE HAD A KALASHNIKOV HANDED TO

YOU AFTER THAT EXPERIENCE?

>> Jon: YES.

(LAUGHTER)SO, SO I DEFINITELY UNDERSTAND.

THE PROBLEM THEN BECOMES, ITBECOMES LORD OF THE FLIES

AND WHOEVER CAN TAKE THESTRICTEST CONTROL AND THEN IT'S

JUST WARLORDISM, ISN'T IT?

THEN IT'S JUST THESE, THESEMILITIA MOVEMENTS WHO WERE VERY

VIOLENT AND VERY CONTROLLINGAND HOW LONG AFTER THESE

TYPES OF GROUPS TAKE OVER DOTHOSE PEOPLE GO, YOU KNOW WHAT?

MAYBE THE LINE AT THE D.M.V.

WASN'T THAT LONG BECAUSE, AT THEEND OF IT, I STILL HAD MY HEAD.

>> SO LOOK AT SISI IN EGYPT.>> Jon: YES.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU KIND OF HAD ARESTORATION IN SISI --

>> Jon: YES.

>> SORRY, A RESTORATION IN EGYPTWITH SISI.

>> Jon: OF AN AUTOCRACY. YES.

>> EXACTLY. EXACTLY.

THAT KIND OF THING HAPPENED INIRAN.

I THINK A LOT OF IRANIANCITIZENS KIND OF REGRET WHICH

WAY THEY WENT IN REACTION AGAINSTHE KLEPTOCRATIC AND ABUSIVE

GOVERNMENT OF THE SHAH.

>> Jon: IN '79. YOU THINK THEYREGRET THE THEOCRACY?

>> YES. THAT'S RIGHT.>> Jon: RIGHT.

>> SO THERE WERE BIGDEMONSTRATIONS, YOU KNOW,

IN IRAN IN 2009 AGAINST THEISLAMIC REPUBLIC WHICH IS WHAT

THE PEOPLE HAD CHOSENINSTEAD OF THE SHAH.

>> Jon: RIGHT.

>> NOW THE POINT I TRY TO MAKEIS THAT, YOU KNOW, ONCE STUFF

GETS THIS VIOLENT, ALL BETS AREOFF.

>> Jon: RIGHT.

>> I'M NOT SAYING BOKO HARAM ISTHE BETTER CHOICE THAN THE

GOVERNMENT OF GOODLUCK JONATHAN.>> Jon: RIGHT.

>> WHAT I'M SAYING IS PEOPLE AREDRIVEN TO EXTREMES AND THEN YOU

GET SECURITY CRISES.

>> Jon: AND THAT IS THE TYPE OFTHING THAT IF YOU CAN CONTROL

SOME OF THE CORRUPTION, YOU TAKE

A LITTLE BIT OF THE ENERGY OUTOF THESE EXTREMIST MOVEMENTS.

>> EXACTLY. EXACTLY.

>> Jon: WILL YOU STICKAROUND FOR JUST A LITTLE BIT?

>> I'D LOVE TO.

>> Jon: ALL RIGHT. BEAUTIUL.

WE'LL TALK A LITTLE BIT MOREABOUT IT.

"THIEVES OF STATE," IT'S ON THESHELVES NOW.

SARAH CHAYES.

WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.

THROW IT UP ON THE WEB.

All Shows

#
A
B
C
D
E
F
G
H
I
J
K
L
M
N
O
P
Q
R
S
T
U
V
W
X
Y
Z